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By StackyMcRacky (Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 12:46:50 AM EST) (all tags)
Babylon 5 discussion diary.

Now that I’m not the last person on the planet to watch Babylon 5, it’s time for a discussion diary!  I’ve only watched the TV series - none of the movies.


Overall, I loved the show.  Why aren’t more American TV shows done like this?  It had a beginning, a middle, and an end.  Even the times JMS had to “punt,” it didn’t ruin the story (Sinclair leaving, Ivannova leaving, Talia leaving, etc.).  Everything about it was just tight, and it made for an amazing series.

Some comments, in no particular order:

  • The time travel episodes were by far the best use of time travel EVAR in a series.   I’m left wondering what JMS originally had in store, since the entire show was originally supposed to revolve around Sinclair.

  • Talia Winters - what was her point?  I know, I know, there was originally a pretty decent arc planned for her, but the actress left the show so they never got around to completing it.  She could have been totally removed from the series, she was so worthless.

  • I’m still not a big fan of Captain Pretty Boy, I just came to tolerate him towards the end (since he wasn’t going away).

  • I HATE HATE HATED the romance between Delenn and CPB.  Part of the reason I hate it so is in S1, Delenn was all flirty with Sinclair.....and then got all flirty with Sheridan.  Space-whore!  Also, I feel like the romance was shoved down our throats.  There was nothing subtle about it (example of a good romance: Marcus and Ivannova).

  • Speaking of Marcus and Ivannova, I loved their romance.  I hated that he killed himself in the end over it, but that probably adds to the reason I love it so - tragic.  Her reaction to his death was wonderful as well “I should have at least boffed him!”

  • They didn’t use Draal (is that his name?) and Epsilon III enough. 

  • Londo - you just hated him at first, then began to like him once he decided to become a better person.  Alas, it was too little, too late.  I’d love to know more detail into his reign as Emperor, but I’d have to read the books and I don’t have much time for that sort of thing these days.  One day.

  • G’Kar - great character.  Not much else I can say about him.

  • I’d love to know more about Kosh’s (the first one) motives.  I get the feeling he was operating more on his own and less as the spokesman of the entire Vorlon race.  Kind of like...he was supposed to have a certain agenda, but then saw a way to end the conflict with the Shadows forever, and changed tactics.  Is there a book of some sort on this subject?

  • IMO, the graphics have held up really well over time.

  • I’m assuming the rest of Lyta’s story is told in the telepath war book series?  I’d like to know what happened to her after she left with G’Kar.  I tend to agree with her - they used her and just left her hanging.

  • What happened to Lennir?

  • The actor’s commentary on the DVDs was hilarious.

  • In general, S5 felt like a big afterthought to me.  Yes, it continued everybody’s stories, but I didn’t feel the same passion? (for lack of a better word) in the stories as I did in the earlier seasons.

  • What happened to Catherine Saki, Sinclair’s woman?  Garibaldi mentioned her in S5 (“she’s been missing”), but there was no follow-up.  Was she just fine and dandy with her husband traveling back in time like that?  Was she on Minbar with him?  Is she a Ranger?

  • Captain Pretty Boy’s death at Za’ha’dun bothered me.  His resurrection was too quick.  If he was supposed to make some spiritual journey to come back to life, I didn’t get it.  Then again, I can be a bit thick with certain themes.

  • They should have worked Lady Morella’s visions into the latter part of the story more.  Like have Londo flashback to what she said and have him realize where he went wrong.

  • LOVED Vir and Lennir’s little support group.  “Same time tomorrow?”

    That’s all I can think of right now.  I’m sure more will come up in the comments (get commenting!)

    One bad thing about the show - it gives me little hope that BSG will end in a satisfying way.  Compared to B5, you can just tell the writers/producers of BSG have been making things up as they go along (Tigh as a cylon? PLEASE!).

    • < pasta | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >

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    Our last best hope for a diary | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
    I haven't watched b5 by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #1 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 03:33:50 AM EST
    Well, back when it was on tv I watched a few episodes, and thought it sucked.

    When I'm imprisoned as an enemy combatant, will you blog about it?


    I don't think I've ever seen it by lm (2.00 / 0) #5 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 09:06:00 AM EST
    If I did ever watch any of it, I don't remember it all.
    There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
    Cicero, The Republic
    [ Parent ]

    Some answers to some questions... by atreides (4.00 / 1) #2 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 04:01:39 AM EST
    There will be a few spoilers in this, but I don't want to spoiler tag the entire comment.





    If you don't want to know, turn back now.





    Right now...





    Consider yourself warned...










    The time travel episodes were by far the best use of time travel EVAR in a series.   I’m left wondering what JMS originally had in store, since the entire show was originally supposed to revolve around Sinclair.

    The two parter War Without End would have been the original end of the series.  "Return to the end of the beginning"...

    Talia Winters - what was her point?  I know, I know, there was originally a pretty decent arc planned for her, but the actress left the show so they never got around to completing it.  She could have been totally removed from the series, she was so worthless.

    Lyta kinda took up where Talia would have gone.  They used her out, but had she stayed, Garibaldi would have gotten the copy of her personality recorder for Kosh by Abbut the Vicar.  He even said he might have an idea what to do in the episode...

    I HATE HATE HATED the romance between Delenn and CPB.  Part of the reason I hate it so is in S1, Delenn was all flirty with Sinclair.....and then got all flirty with Sheridan.  Space-whore!  Also, I feel like the romance was shoved down our throats.  There was nothing subtle about it (example of a good romance: Marcus and Ivannova).

    One of JMS's flaws which messes up his ability to do romance well is that he doesn't write females all that well. :(

    Speaking of Marcus and Ivannova, I loved their romance.  I hated that he killed himself in the end over it, but that probably adds to the reason I love it so - tragic.  Her reaction to his death was wonderful as well "I should have at least boffed him!"

    Be glad she left.  Had everything gone as planned, she would have fallen for that fucknut Byron.  You know how he seemed a little like Marcus, but in a bad way?  Well, it would have resonated with her, especially since he'd be telling her that she shouldn't have to hide her nature as a telepath.  Which of course means that she'd end up opening up to someone who would leave her again.  Tragic.

    Londo - you just hated him at first, then began to like him once he decided to become a better person.  Alas, it was too little, too late.  I’d love to know more detail into his reign as Emperor, but I’d have to read the books and I don’t have much time for that sort of thing these days.  One day.

    Peter David wrote the Centauri trilogy so I highly recommend it.  The series shows the important bits but the books talk a lot about how Vir stepped up and ended up in the seat.

    I’d love to know more about Kosh’s (the first one) motives.  I get the feeling he was operating more on his own and less as the spokesman of the entire Vorlon race.  Kind of like...he was supposed to have a certain agenda, but then saw a way to end the conflict with the Shadows forever, and changed tactics.  Is there a book of some sort on this subject?

    The Technomage Trilogy goes into it a little, but basically, Kosh still cared about the lesser races while Kosh Vader was merely fixated on winning at any cost.  No canonical source goes into deeper detail that I'm aware, but I've only read the canon books (Telepath, Centauri & Technomage trilogies, To Dream In The City of Sorrows, and The Shadow Within) and not the other Del Rey ones (yet).

    I’m assuming the rest of Lyta’s story is told in the telepath war book series?  I’d like to know what happened to her after she left with G’Kar.  I tend to agree with her - they used her and just left her hanging.

    Nope.  The Telepath Trilogy is mostly about Bester but she gets mentioned and makes an appearance or two.  Garibaldi keeps his promise, she removes his block and leads the Battle against Psi-Corps but ends up dying just before a big attack on an important PsiCorp base that pretty much decides the war. 

    What happened to Lennir?

    They never say. :(

    In general, S5 felt like a big afterthought to me.  Yes, it continued everybody’s stories, but I didn’t feel the same passion? (for lack of a better word) in the stories as I did in the earlier seasons.

    Originally the Earth War was going to stretch out much longer and be resolved at the end of Season 5.  Paramount/PTEN weren't coming up with the money for a 5th season so JMS had to rush and finish it in 4 in case they didn't get a 5th.  TNT came to the rescue, though if it had all happened one month earlier, SciFi would have picked it up...

    What happened to Catherine Saki, Sinclair’s woman?  Garibaldi mentioned her in S5 (“she’s been missing”), but there was no follow-up.  Was she just fine and dandy with her husband traveling back in time like that?  Was she on Minbar with him?  Is she a Ranger?

    Well, if it had been Sinclair-centric, the Quantium-40 score would have been on Z'ha'dum.  She goes to check it further and disappears.  Later, she's Anna Sheridan and comes back and you get the idea...  In reality, when Sinclair goes back and becomes Valen, she apparently shows up in the past and they live happily ever after or some such.  Can't tell you my source on that, though.  I forgot. :(

    They should have worked Lady Morella’s visions into the latter part of the story more.  Like have Londo flashback to what she said and have him realize where he went wrong.

    The important thing is that he embraced his greatest fear knowing it would destroy him.  He screwed up everything else but he got that one right.

    That's all I have for you right now.  Any more questions?

    He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.


    more! by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #15 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 02:02:37 PM EST
    Would "War without end" have really been the end of the series?  I thought the end we saw was the ending he had imagined from the very beginning.  Maybe it would have just been a slightly different variation.

    I agree - he doesn't write females well at all.

    How can Catherine show up in the past and live with Sinclair....when he married some Minbari woman and spread his human seed all over the place?  Meh, maybe I need to research this a bit myself.

    I read there were some graphic novels written that filled in more parts of the story (like the final fate of Babylon 4 and Valen), but I'm sure there's not much chance of finding those now.

    Are the movies worth watching?


    [ Parent ]

    Even more! by atreides (2.00 / 0) #19 Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:50:24 AM EST
    Yes, it was the original end.  That was always Sinclair's end.  It probably would have been written slightly differently, but that was the basic gist of it.

    As for Catherine, well, when Vorlons are involved, who knows what could happen...

    The graphic novels are still out and they can be gotten.  I've actually thought about at least getting the B4 ones.  I know this much though...  After the last great war, the Minbari towed B4 to another planet and didn't tell anyone lest someone use it or attack it as a symbol. 

    The movies...  A bit of a mixed bag.  The Gathering (the pilot) is ok, but hard to watch once you've seen the rest.  In the Beginning is awesome and I highly recommend it.  It's obviously a prequel, but I wouldn't recommend to someone who hasn't already seen the series.  Thirdspace has kinda crappy pacing, but it's decent.  River of Souls has some good ideas, but isn't all that great.  Call to Arms isn't bad, either and it sets up Crusade (the series).  Legend of the Rangers is kinda schlocky, with a few good ideas, but ultimately you can see it's about to go down similar roads as B5.  I would have liked to see a Rangers series, but not with that bunch as it was set up.  Lost Tales is nice if you haven't seen any new B5 in years, but JMS not only screws minor points of continuity with the old series, but kinda hits you over the head with a few things.  Sure, he's not always subtle to begin with, but he's especially ham-fisted with Lost Tales, hopefully because it's just been a while since he wrote in this setting since there's more in the pipe... 

    Anything else I can tell you?  Oh, and would you like to see the movies?  I could be convinced to lend those out.  I have everything I've just listed except Legend of the Rangers... 


    He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.
    [ Parent ]

    OH OH OH by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #20 Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 10:27:13 AM EST
    I can't believe I forgot one of my biggest questions!!!!!!

    OK! Zathras referred to Sinclair as "the One who was," Delenn as "the One who is," and CPB as "the One who will be."  I'm confused what this referred to, and when CPB became the One.

    At first, I thought it referred to being Ranger One....but CPB was only head of the Rangers for like 2 years (right?  at the end of his life?), and then they asked Ivannova to take over.  Then why wasn't Ivannova also considered a "the One?"  OR, was that just a continuity error, or just didn't counts because Minbari always come in 3's?

    I'll just netflix the movies when I get a chance....it isn't easy to find time to watch stuff more than 40 minutes or so with the dude around.

    [ Parent ]

    The One vs Ranger One by atreides (2.00 / 0) #21 Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:47:03 PM EST
    The Head of the Rangers (the Anla'shok) is the Inthil'za (Minbari for "the Future").  Said head is also referred to informally as Ranger One.  This is not the same as "the One".

    A little of this is my supposition, but nobody really "becomes" the One, they just sort of stumble into it.  Like Justin says in Z'Ha'Dum, some people are a nexus and when they go one way, the universe tends to follow.  Also as Sebastian talked about in Comes the Inquisitor, it's important for the right people to be in the right place at the right time for the right reasons.  Now, when JMS first came up with it, Sinclair would be "THE One" but with the changes and a minor change of thinking on his behalf (he thought it difficult for one person to do all the stuff that needed to be done), he split it up.

    Sinclair became Valen, helped win the previous Shadow War and created the framework for Minbari society for a thousand years and longer, founding the Rangers who will last in one form or another at least until the Sun goes boom and we, in First One guise, go off to New Earth (which, it is hinted and eventually said by JMS, is the abandoned Vorlon Homeworld).  Incidentally, he is the first bridge between Humans and Minbari.

    Delenn fulfills the prophecies of Valen, creates the beginnings of the resistance to the Shadows, brings the Minbari into the war and helps lead the other races into organized resistance and gives birth to the first cross-species child ever known.  She is also a bridge between Humans and Minbari on more levels than Sinclair.

    As for Sheridan becoming the One, well, you can tell from Deconstruction of Falling Start and Sleeping in Light (which still makes me a little misty every time I watch it) that his Alliance lasts for a thousand years, along with driving away both the Shadows and the Vorlons and eventually fighting off the Drakh.  He's a bridge, too, but less so.

    Since the Humans and Minbari eventually evolve to be like the First Ones, it could rightly be said that these three put everything on the path and I think that's worth special note as "the One"...


    He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.
    [ Parent ]

    ok by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #22 Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 02:19:06 PM EST
    so CPB was just lame fill-in guy to have a 3rd.

    [ Parent ]

    More shows like that by Vulch (4.00 / 1) #3 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 04:26:34 AM EST

    Very few producers have enough freedom from pressure from the programme commissioners, and even fewer have the nerve to trust their own judgement and not use focus groups. JMS was mostly left to his own devices and knew where he was going with it, and we landed up with one persons vision and not a committee view. Compare B5 with Crusade which showed a lot of promise but had people from the commissioners making "suggestions" just because they could rather than because they were needed.

    In the other space show franchise DS9 was mostly left alone to tell its own story, a lesson that people who worked on it have carried forwards, all the helpful suggestions were being aimed at Voyager.

    Of course there are counter examples, one persons vision turned Andromeda into Kirkules for the later series.

    In the UK the BBC has acted as a brake to the commissioners pressure problem, largely due to the lack of any need to get advertisers interested. Most programmes were produced in house and once the go-ahead for a series was given things ran through to the end. Unfortunately focus groups have started creeping in and with more material being bought in the pressures are starting to build.



    Kosh by jayhawk88 (2.00 / 0) #4 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 08:44:39 AM EST
    I always kind of thought of Kosh as comperable to Uata the Watcher from the Marvel Universe. Watchers are supposed to have a strict code of non-interference and only watch what happens, but Uata is constantly giving Marvel heroes tips, warnings, and often times actively helps them out, because he has a soft spot for humans and knows that the species has a bright future ahead of them.

    As for why we don't see more of this kind of television, think about what it would be like to pitch something like this in this day and age:

    Producer: OK, so this is a sci-fi project. It takes place in a stationary space station, it has lots of alien races and space battles so the effects budget will be through the roof, we're relying on actualy science fiction book writers for much of our script work, and oh yeah, the whole thing is based on a 5 season plan our show creator has in his head.

    Studio Execs: Man, get me some of what this guy is smoking! Seriously, get out of our office. Hey anyone see that Youtube video of the skateboarding dog? Someone get his owner on the phone, now that's a show!



    s/Uata/Uatu by Horatio Hellpop (2.00 / 0) #12 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 04:23:59 AM EST

    "You can't really know something until you ruin it for everyone." -some guy who used to have an account here
    [ Parent ]

    Sheridan by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #6 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 10:46:41 AM EST
    I agree wholeheartedly.  Part of it in my case might be Bruce Boxleitner.  I  don't  care for  his acting. 



    He was acting? by alien zero (2.00 / 0) #16 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 04:16:54 PM EST
    Well that explains Tron anyhow

    [ Parent ]

    I assume he was acting by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #17 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 04:27:02 PM EST
    He is a member of the actor's guild,  and I assume that you at least have to act in order to be a member.  Maybe it's too big an assumption.

    [ Parent ]

    Actors leaving by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #7 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 11:08:58 AM EST
    Stracynzki planned everything out, but when actors left, he tended to try to slot other characters in the plan. So in the planned version, Sinclair did everything Sheridan did, including the romance with Delenn and the return of his wife. Talia did everything Lyta did in the series. Ivanova did everything Lockley did in the series. The cracks were definitely showing in some of that.
    ----
    ウセーバラケダ


    I have this perverse desire by R343L (2.00 / 0) #9 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    for an extended graphic novel series written as the original story line. It will never happen, but ...

    "There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
    [ Parent ]

    He could have it if he wanted it. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #10 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 05:00:04 PM EST
    JMS is mostly employed doing comics now.

    Neither of the "Big 2" comic companies would touch the property because it failed to garner enough support to last as a television series, which equals not enough support to justify the expense of taking resources off, say, a paying property.

    But, if he was interested, I bet he could get a company like Dynamite - who specializes in comics based on existing properties (they've done remarkable work with, of all things, the Lone Ranger and they are currently responsible for the BSG comic lines: three different titles at this point which all make a profit) - to support him. If comic companies out there are producing Tron and Buckaroo Banzai titles, then I find it hard to believe that there's zero interest in the biz.

    Honestly, I suspect that JMS is pulling a Jack Dempsey. As the story of B5 stands now, he gets to be the genius who was robbed. No matter what he does, he can always claim that he had something better and grander planned out. If, somehow, he were given total control and told to finish it all up, then he'd have to finish everything. And endings, no matter how well done, piss off some percentage of the fan base. It is no win. Better to be the wronged genius than to try to live up to the expectations fans have been building up for, what, several years now.

    [ Parent ]

    JMS by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #11 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 06:35:04 PM EST
    B5 is my favorite SF series but still...having seen some of the other stuff he did like "Crusade" and some of the frankly abysmal B5 movies, I'm not sure he's the genius he is purported to be.

    The writing in B5 was top-notch, but on the other hand, it also had some very good actors in very key roles. For instance, G'Kar and Londo were two alien characters who were more complex, deeper than anything on Star Trek and at least some of that is due to acting and not writing. Part of what makes B5 suffer in the last season is that some of the newer actors brought in just weren't the same caliber.
    ----
    ウセーバラケダ
    [ Parent ]

    crusade by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #14 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 01:57:47 PM EST
    I read about what happened with that show....

    TNT signed up for all the B5 stuff, because they thought it would be a great way to get new viewers.  Unfortunately, they realized that B5 viewers were tuning in for B5 then going back to other stations.  It was too late for them to get out of "Crusade" at that point without breaching the contract, so they decided to make producing Crusade as miserable as possible so the other guys would pull the plug and they'd not be held accountable.

    [ Parent ]

    check out imdb by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #13 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 01:55:17 PM EST
    he's doing quite a few movies.

    [ Parent ]

    Movie stuff. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #18 Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 05:11:57 PM EST
    I didn't mean to suggest that he's only doing funny book work these days. But hte movie stuff is all adaptations, remakes, and spin-offs. Nothing he created.

    He's co-writing a remake (Changeling), two adaptations (They March and WWZ), and a sequel spin-off from the Fantastic Four franchise.

    In none of those cases does he have anything like the control that he had over B5.

    Comic-wise he's got three complete original series and does writing duty on something like five other continuing titles. In two of those original series, he's published by Icon, a house that does creator-owned titles, which means he calls the shots.

    [ Parent ]

    after marcus died by LilFlightTest (2.00 / 0) #8 Sat Nov 17, 2007 at 02:41:03 PM EST
    the show lost something for me. also after CPB and delenn really got together, it just was sorta boring. (though if i recall, the thing whats-his-name did with the fake eye on the nightstand made me giggle). course, that's right about when it went to cable and i couldn't watch it anymore. we're considering doing netflix, so i might watch the rest then.
    ---------
    if de-virgination results in me being able to birth hammerhead sharks, SIGN ME UP!!! --misslake


    Our last best hope for a diary | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

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